During the course of our research we came across many Englands. No doubt some of them are directly linked to our particular family but we don't know for sure. This is a list that tries to give some sense of a stronger or weaker connection to our family. Timing, place, naming conventions [1] and links with other families, can all be factors to make a connection stronger. [Please note, as throughout this blog, dates are in the British style of day-month-year.]
Bear in mind: 1785 marriage - 1812 (Thomas's death), 1820 Honora's death
Before 1785, we are led to believe that Thomas England was not in Cork and that his remaining family (two younger brothers and sisters) were elsewhere in Ireland. Guilday [2] in his biography of Thomas' son John, implies that Thomas came from County Tipperary.
We don't know the names of the brothers and sisters or whether they came to Cork after Thomas settled there. But, there were naming conventions used in Ireland strongly from the late 1700s to the 1900s, and this might help with some of the Englands mentioned here. So, 'familiar' names might be closer connected, with unusual names possibly coming in from a wife's naming line. (See the naming convention reference for more details on this practice). These are tenuous links but are the beginning of leads in the scheme of genealogy.
Early Englands with stronger place and name connection. (Cork)
Births [b:] baptism [bap:] Marriages [m:] Deaths [d:] Sponsors and Witnesses [wit:]
John England bap: 4-7-1802. Parents: Timothy England and Catherine England, of Bishop’s Lane, Cork. sponsors: James England and Honora England. (Lordan?) at St Finbarr’s, Cork.
England connection: Timothy is not associated with the Cork Englands at this time through naming convention, but if the witness is Honora England, wife of Thomas England, then this should mean a stronger familiar connection to this Timothy because sponsors are usually known to the people involved and invited to be sponsors. Could Timothy be Thomas' brother? James England here is not Honora's seventh son, James, as he was born 1805, but it is a familial name. This James might be the same James as a witness in 1792 under The Hierlithy family connection below.
Thomas England bap: 1814. The sponsors were Edward and Ellen England The celebrant was Thomas England.
England connection: Thomas and Honora's twins were Edward and Ellen (bap: 1795) and Thomas, the celebrant, was their second son who became a priest. This coincidence makes a stronger connection to this Thomas and his parents.
Margaret/Mary England bap: 1-11-1812 at St Mary’s, Cork. The parents were Michael England and Mary Haynes. The sponsors were ? [unclear] Hynes and Honora England. The baptism was undertaken by the Rev. John England.
England connection: Although Michael England's marriage to Mary Haynes (Hynes?) did not include any other Englands as witnesses, it is significant that their first daughter is sponsored by Honora England (Lordan?), she is alive until 1820, and the ceremony was performed by Rev John England - Thomas and Honora's son before he is made Bishop and leaves for Charleston. This makes this connection to Michael and Mary stronger. Also, as Thomas had died within the previous year, it might make this ceremony more significant by Michael and Mary including Honora and John, and naming the baby Thomas. Could Michael be a nephew by Thomas' brother?)
"In 1814 there was the death of a Miss Eliza England, daughter of the late Mr Thomas England of Blarney Lane."
England connection: From Carol Jones' research, no specific reference. As present day Michael England, son of Philip England, commented, “Is this another child we don’t know about?” [Despite searching the Cork and Dublin newspapers, there is no mention of a Miss Eliza England connected with Thomas England that can now be found.]
Joanna England and Thomas O’Keefe were wit: John Seymour and Grace Bransfield, 11-1-1819 St. Mary’s, Cork.
England connection: This Joanna could be the fourth daughter of Thomas and Honora (bap: 1801) as she went to America in 1820 with her brother and died there. This Grace could be her cousin as her brother, Michael married Mary Bransfield in 1815. This would make Michael Grace's brother-in-law and Mary's sister.)
Very Early Cork Englands
Register of Burials at St. Peter’s Parish, City of Cork.13-1-1761 - child of James England,
England connection: Thomas and Honora seventh and last son's name (bap:1805))3-11-1762 - John England
England connection: Thomas and Honora's firstborn son's name (bap: 1786))6-11-1762 - Thomas England
England connection: There are a lot of Thomas Englands in our line and as we don't know about the line prior to 1785, any Thomases are of interest. As the naming convention suggests, names run in families. But this is as far as we can conjecture here.17-11-1762 - William England.
(not a name associated with our Cork line, possibly from a wife's naming line?)19-7-1765 - Martha England
(not a name associated with our Cork line, possibly from a wife's naming line?)13-3-1768 - William England
(not a name associated with our Cork line, possibly from a wife's naming line?)23-7-1780 - Elizabeth England
England connection: Thomas and Honora's third daughter (bap:1796) as we understand, but according to naming convention this name should have been 'Honora' - the mother's name - and it clearly isn't. Had the couple already named a child that died Honora?20-8-1799 - Thomas England
England connection: There are a lot of Thomas Englands in our line and as we don't know about the line prior to 1785, any Thomases are of interest. As the naming convention suggests, names run in families. But this is as far as we can conjecture here.......................................................................................................
John England m: Cath Ryan, 14-2-1773, at St Peter and Paul’s, Cork
England connection: Thomas and Honora called their firstborn son John (bap: 1786) but this John is a contemporary of Thomas and Honora so is maybe his brother?Hanna England: bap: 3-5-1790 at St Peter and Paul’s, Cork. The parents were John England and Ellen Haye.
England connection: Hanna appears later in 1823 as the first daughter of Edward and Amelia England of our line, but then is more likely to be a naming convention from Amelia's line; her mother, for example. This name is not strongly associated to our line at this time.
St Finbarr's Cork
This church features prominently in Thomas and Honora's lives as they married there. They lived in this part of the city, Blarney Lane, so it was presumably their local church and would have been significant to them. This church survives today. At that time it was often referred to as 'South Parish' and should not be confused with St Finbarr's Cathedral of today. Many other people attending the South Parish church would have been known to them, most likely, since the church was a greater part of people's lives than today, just like family connections. Thomas and Honora were strong Catholics. Thomas had been imprisoned for his faith like his father before him. However, their children were baptised in St Mary's, the Catholic Cathedral of that time, not in St Finbarr's, South Parish.
Michael England bap: 20-12-1791 at St Finbarr’s, Cork. The parents were John England and Betty Keefe. The sponsors were William Waters and Anne Whelan.
England connection: This John England is a contemporary of Thomas and Honora, possibly his brother? Thomas and Honora named their third son Michael (bap:1792), so Michael features in our line too. Note: the third son in naming convention is usually named after the father, so this flouts that. However, the second son was called already called Thomas (maybe Honora's father's name was Thomas) which would have made the third son being called Thomas irrelevant.
Judith England m: John Ahern and then had Mary bap: 25-11-1809, Michael bap: 11-9-1811 and Ellen bap: 5-3-1820 all at St. Finbarr’s,Cork.
England connection: Judith is not a name associated with our Cork Englands. The children's names of Michael and Ellen are familiar but could just be names from the Ahern family too.Margaret England of Abbey St. m: John Murphy 19-11-1811 at St Finbarr’s, Cork.
England connection: There are no Margarets associated with our Cork Englands.Mary England bap: 24-4-1813 at St Finbarr’s, Cork. The parents were John England and Ellen Regan. Their son, James bap: 6-2-1816.
England connection: If this John followed convention then his first daughter, Mary, would have been named after the mother's mother. His first son, James, would have been after his own father. But this does not link him to our Cork Englands although we recognise John and James as names used in our line.Thomas England bap: 30-6-1842 at St Finbarr’s, Cork. His parents were Patrick and Mary England.
England connection: There is no direct connection we can make as we don't know of a Patrick and Mary England. However, with this date, we might be on the third generation of Englands from Thomas and Honora, and the mix of name convention from the wife's line might have come into play depending on the number of children that our England unknown cousins had. So, Thomas is a name we recognise strongly but we can't link this one to our line at present.Mary England m: John McCarthy 4-11-1854 and their children were Bartholomew, bap:21-7-1855, Margaret, bap: 23-8-1857 and Mary, bap: 3-4-1860 all at St. Finbarr’s, Cork.
England connection: We can make no direct link to this Mary England at this date in Cork. Edward England's last daughter was named Emily Mary England and would have been aged 17 at this time.
St Mary's Cork
This church predates the present Catholic Cathedral, and was known as the cathedral in Thomas and Honora's time. They had their children baptised there. It was built in the 1730s and was known as the North Cathedral. But the newer Cathedral, St Mary's and St Anne's, was built on its site and dedicated in 1808. Their son, Bishop John England was ordained a priest there before going to Bandon and then the USA as a Bishop in 1820.Honora England and Edward Scanlon wit: to the marriage of Denis McCarthy and Catherine Murphy 23-1-1813 at St Mary’s, Cork.
Name Connection: Honora was still alive in 1813 but the next generation of our line that had more Honoras, probably named in her memory, were not born at this time, so this might be her.James England m: Ann Shea. wit: John Boyde and Mary Shea 15-9-1823, St Mary’s, Cork.
England connection: We have no records of James England born to Thomas and Honora (1805) except his baptism. This might be our James at 18 getting married but the witnesses are not people we recognise, so the connection is weaker.
Other families and the Englands
The Hierlithy Family Connection?
Note: we don't know if these Hierlithys are related but the name crops up with Englands regularly.
1. John Hierlihy m: Mary England 19-2-1792. wit: James England and Patrick Cobert at St Finbarr’s, Cork. Their children were: Mary, bap: 1-1-1793, James, bap: 2-12-1796, John, bap:24-10-1800, Ellen, bap:6-2-1803 and Betty, bap: 29-7-1805 all at St. Finbarr’s, Cork.
2. Gerard/Gerald England of Sommertown, Cork City m: Ellen Hierlihy 6-11-1797 at St. Finbarr’s, Cork wit: James and Timothy England. Residence of Togher, Cork City. Their children: John England bap: 30-6-1801 and Mary England bap: 5-11-1806.
England connection: Mary is not a name associated directly with the Cork England line but might have come via a wife's family naming convention. This James is a contemporary of Thomas and Honora and they named their seventh and last son James (bap:1805) whereas this couple named their firstborn son James, likely after John Hielithy's father.
England connection: Gerard/Gerald is not associated with our Cork England line but might have come via a wife's family naming convention depending on how many brothers and sisters he had. The same is true of Mary. But it would seem too much of a coincidence that a John Hierlithy married a Mary England, same church, within a few years. Were John and Ellen Hierlithy related, were Mary and Gerard/Gerald England related? James and Timothy are contemporary with our Thomas England, might they be his lost brothers? or cousins?3. Mary England of Togher, Cork City, bap: 5-12-1806. The father was Garret (Gerard, Gerrald?) England and the mother was Ellen Herlihy. (see above)
4. James England and Mary Hierlihy were sponsors at the baptism of Michael Ahern bap:11-9-1811 whose father was John Ahern and the mother was Judith England from Tocher. [Togher] Cork city.
England connection: It would seem that this James England and Judith England knew one another, but our line doesn't have these names associated together. Judith England is unknown to our line.5. Mary England m: Cornelius Hierlihy and their children were Patrick bap: 2-2-1829, Margaret bap: 10-5-1830, James bap: 22-9-1832 and John bap:17-6-1835 all at St Finbarr’s, Cork.
England connection: Apart from the surname, we know of no connection between Mary England and our line at this date. The names James and John are known in our line though.6. James England was a sponsor to Mary Herlihy bap: 9-11-1841.
England connection: We do not know of a James England of our line at this date but then we stopped having any information about our James England in 1805.The Barry family connection.
Note: we don't know if these Barrys are related to each other but the name appears with the Englands on several occasions.
1. John England was a sponsor at the baptism of Ellr (Elleanor) Barry at St Peter and Paul’s, Cork, 11-3-1781.
England connection: Thomas and Honora called their firstborn son John (bap: 1786) but this John is a contemporary of Thomas and Honora so maybe his brother? Also later in 1813, Anne daughter of Thomas and Honora married a Barry. Is this the same family and was the connection to the Cork Englands a long standing one?2. Ellen England m: James Barry, 9-2-1779, at St Mary’s, Cork. wit: James Barry and John England.
England connection: Thomas and Honora named their second daughter, Ellen, (bap:1795) and their firstborn son John (bap: 1786) This John is a contemporary of Thomas and Honora so maybe his brother? Also note the Barry family connection as Anne, Thomas and Honora's 1st daughter married M.J.Barry in 1813.3. Thomas England and Ellen Barry are wit: Thomas Hooper and Mary Barry, 27-7-1802.
England connection: This could be our Thomas England who was still alive in 1802. His son, Thomas, would be too young. It may be unconnected, of course, except for the Barry connection to Englands in Cork. Was Ellen Barry Mary's mother, sister or cousin perhaps?
The Falvey family connection
“Another of the Bishop’s sisters married a Falvey from Innishannon and some of their direct descendants live in Bandon today.” (Bandon Parish Journal Date?)England connection: The Bishop’s sisters were Anne who married Michael Barry, Elizabeth became a nun, Joanna Monica who died in Charleston. That leaves Ellen, the twin? There was a connection between the Englands and the Falveys. At Thomas the architect’s baptism one of the sponsors was an Anne Falvey. Also, Richard Hussey bap 27-4-1830: Thomas England and a Margaret Falvey were the sponsors, but we're not sure where this baptism took place.
Englands of Cloyne
Michael England m: Mary Haynes 18-1-1812/18-11-1811? at St Mary’s, Cork. Wit: John Sweeney and Timothy Lyons.
England connection: It is important that this Michael moved to Cloyne if the slight changes in the name of his wife (Haynes/Hynes) are accepted as transcription errors (see below). Michael is a name that features in our England line).
Lucy England b: to Michael and Mary Hynes in Aghada. The sponsors: John Looney and Elizabeth Cormer, 1-6-1821.
This is of interest to our line as the Rev Thomas and Rev Henry England that featured in the blog here of 6th March, and were said to be nephews of Bishop John and came from County Cloyne. We can not make any further connections to this Michael England, but these Englands moved from Cork to Cloyne just as our relatives of Thomas and Henry did.
Englands of Bandon
Some of our line lived in Bandon so we are interested in Englands from Bandon although we reckon our line moved from there to Wales in the late 19th century.
An Honora England was a sponsor at the bap: of William O’Sullivan at Bandon, Cork 9-1-1850/1856?
“On Monday the wife of Mr James England of Bandon gave birth to the extraordinary number of four children, three of whom, together with the mother, are doing well.”[Skibereen and West Carbery Eagle, 21-5-1864 and Cork Constitution, 24-5-1864]
1870 William George England b: at Bandon. [Ancestry]
James England, Bridge St, Bandon charged with having been drunk the previous evening and having a loaded revolver in his possession fined 10s and costs. James complained that a number of rings was taken from him but only four had been returned. Sergeant Flyn said there were only four rings. [Cork Constitution, 16-6-1886]
Englands of County Tipperary
We are interested in Tipperary Englands as our Thomas England (1785 marriage) was said to come from Tipperary and have had 2 brothers and sisters, although we haven't been able to connect our line with any Tipperary Englands so far.
Benjamin England married Catherine Bannon in Bonagortbaun, Bourney Parish in 1841. The couple had 3 children - Margaret, Ellen, and Catherine, all born in Bourney Parish between 1842 and 1846. By 1861 Catherine and the 3 girls were living in Kent, England. I am trying to find out if Benjamin died in Ireland or if he and Catherine divorced. Any information on this family while they lived in Ireland would be greatly appreciated. Veronica [See Message Board: Curious Fox – County Tipperary – Villages with less than 5 entries]
Miss England, daughter of Mr James England, Tipperary, at the taking of religious vows at the Convent of Mercy, Tipperary. [Cork Examiner, 9-4-1869]
John England m: Tiny Cagney on 13-8-1885 at Thurles Cathedral, County Tipperary. He was the son of the late Joseph England of Ballyorban. Tiny was the youngest daughter of the late Joseph Cagney, Glenfield, Kilmallock. The celebrant was the Rev.John Hallinan.
Englands of County Clare
The Clare Englands have done extensive research into their line and there is some overlap with names with our line. However, at some point their family became Protestant while ours was always Catholic as we understood. They have a strong military presence and there were times when Catholics were not allowed in that profession. It was known for families to change religion to enter 'forbidden' professions. Also, at times it was not permitted for Catholics to own land, so there was a practice in families for one member to change religion to keep the land in the family for the benefit of all. See Appendix 10 at : www.anthonymaitland.com/chadapdx.htm#App10 for some research on the Clare Englands. Also see:http://teamapproach.ca/tal/youngs/YoungEngland.html We haven't been able to establish a definite link with these Englands so far.
"Died at Kildysart, Co. Clare, Mrs England, wife of Mr Thomas England, jun. of Limerick, merchant" [Saunders' News Letter, 15-6-1806]
Englands of Limerick
We found these because of some similar names being used.
In 1792 there was a Thomas England of Limerick at a meeting of Roman Catholics petitioning for a repeal of the Penal Laws. A Richard England was also present at the meeting. [The Dublin Evening Post, 10-1-1792 and 21-1-1792]
"Bankrupt. Thomas England of Limerick ? chandler." [27-11-1810][Don't have the paper]
Joseph England d: on 31-1-1868 and was buried in an England family grave at St Joseph’s Cemetery, Cork city. The owner of the grave was John England, Bank Place, Killmallock. County Limerick.
Mary Josephine England (child) d: 24-12-1884 and was buried in the same grave in St Joseph’s Cemetery, Cork city.
Elizabeth England of Derby Cottage, Blackrock died on the 22-4-1916, aged 53, and was buried at St Joseph’s Cemetery, Cork city in this family grave.
Joseph Mary England died on the 2-1-1928, aged 40, and was buried at St Joseph’s Cemetery, Cork city in this family grave.
Isabel England died on the 2-2-1988, aged 92 at Derbyshire Cottage Hospital. Her home address was 13, Tusker Avenue, Derbyshire, England. She was buried at St Joseph’s Cemetery, Cork city in this family grave.
Welsh Englands
Note: Our Cork line of Englands moved to Cardiff, Wales, when Patrick Joseph England married and lived there (c 1904). He had moved out of Ireland to England. He was in Hull in 1901, for example.
Josephine Mary England b:1906 in Cardiff
England connection: We have no record of this child being one of PJ England and his wife Josephine Walsh, but the name, Josephine is a family name from this time and their firstborn daughter was called Josephine in 1905. There was a gap until their next child, Patrick in 1908.Patricia E. England was born in Cardiff in 1929 to a mother whose last name was Walsh.
England connection: We have no direct connection to this child that we know although Patricia, England, and Walsh are all part of the family names by this time.Dr England of the ambulance corps was mentioned in the Hull Daily Mail. (19-1-1943)
(Our Dr Tom England was in the ambulance service during the war but he served in Cardiff so this item is strange to us.)
Other Englands - no connections
Note: there is too little information about time, place and names to begin to link these Englands apart from the name itself.James England and Jeremiah Buckly were wit: to Michael Buckley and Catherine Murphy, 2-10-1784.
Mary Catherine England estimated birth year of 1794 died in Cork in 1878. [Ancestry]
Elizabeth England married on the 8-11-1796. wit: Richard Shea and Alice Stack.
Bridget England of Half Moon St, Cork m: Matthew Mehigan 24-1-1810 and wit: John England.
Edmond England and Michael Murphy were wit: John Sullivan and Mary Connor 27-1-1813.
Bridget England bap: 6-2-1816. The parents were John England and Ellen Regan.
Francis, son of Mary England and Thomas Bryne bap: 9-9-1816.
Thomas N. England and James Daly were wit: Joseph Dunbar and ? Murray, 12-9-1822.
Thomas England bap: 7-5-1823. His parents were John England and Mary Ervin.
Thomas England b:6-6-1845, bap: 6-7-1845 at St Peter and Paul’s, Cork. His parents were Edward England and Bess Graham.
John England aged 40, from Ireland, was living in New York Ward 14, District 2 New York. He was married to Honora England. Their three children were William, 8 Catharine, 6 and John, 2. (1860 USA Federal Census)
John England with an estimated b: 1820 died in Cork, 1866 aged 66.
Birth of Martha Jane England in Youghal, County Cork, 1868.
A Philip Joseph England, formerly of Tavistock Square, of Brownswood Park, Queens Rd Hornsey, m: Mary Anne (Minnie) Patrick at St Barnabus Church, Addison Rd, by the Rev. Dr Francis Hessey on 21-12-1871. (Morning Advertiser, London) St Barnabus Church is an Anglican church in Kennsington.
A Philip Joseph England was living in Marylebone, London in 1875, in Clarendon Square.
Bridget England b: 24-6-1881. bap:1-7-1881. Her parents were Michael England and Bridget Manix. The sponsors were Thomas Baldwin and Margaret Barry.
Francis England b:4-10-1889 and bap:11-10-1889 at St Peter and Paul, Cork. The parents were Michael England and Bridget Manix and the sponsors were Denis Murphy and Mary Cotter.
John England d: 13-5-1888 of South Terrace, Co. Cork. Probate was granted to Victoria Newnan of the same place, spinster. Effects of £590. 15s
There was an Edward England living at Winter’s Hill, Cork in 1894. (Freeman’s Journal, Dublin)
John England m: Mary McCarthy on 16-10-1898. Their children were Michael John bap: 29-3-1900 and John bap: 9-12-1901 both at St Finbarr’s, Cork
Footnotes
[1] Irish Naming Convention: See www.ancestralfindings.com/irish-naming-patterns-discover-irish-origins-names-family/
[2] Guilday - The Life and Times of Bishop England
Place Names
St Finbarr's Cork: the oldest Catholic church still in use in Cork City. It was built in 1766 and extended in 1809. Inside, the altar has a sculpture of the Dead Christ created by John Hogan.
Limerick: a city in County Limerick. It is about sixty miles north of Cork City.
Sommertown: in the suburb of Wilton, Cork City. A notable landmark of Wilton was St Finbarr’s cemetery. Togher is an area east of Wilton.
Kildysart: a village in County Clare thirty seven miles west of Limerick City.
Aghada: a small fishing town south east of Cork City.
Cloyne: a small town to the south east of Middleton in eastern County Cork. The Diocese of Cloyne includes such places as Aghada, Fermoy, Killavullen, Macroom and Youghal.
Bourney: a parish in County Tipperary four and a half miles from Roscrea.
Bandon: a town in County Cork nineteen miles south west of Cork City.
Kilmallock: a town in County Limerick near the border with County Cork. Cork city is forty four miles away.
Thurles: a town in County Tipperary. It is 72 miles from Cork City.
South Terrace: an area very close to Cork city centre. It is east of St. Finbarr’s cathedral.
Innishannon: a large village on the main Cork (14 miles) to Bandon (5 miles) road.
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